Pre-Talk and Sentence Structure Lesson with Cel - Dec 7/8

Cel: Alright, so let's start with going over the rudimentary elements of the "pre-talk"

Cel: When you are interacting with a subject for the first time, there are a few things you should try to find out, some may be shy or haven't thought too hard about what they want, but it's still important to get the broad strokes of what they wish to get out of a session or a long-term relationship(in lack of a better word)

Naomi: Like a MIV?

Naomi: (Most Important Value?)

Cel: Pretty much, Naomi.

Cel: What you are planning to do or want to do with a session should be discussed, and you should also cover how you are planning to do it, sometimes a subject may object to a method which is used, and therefore it should be discussed.

Cel: For instance, some subjects may have a problem with a induction technique or might not want suggestions that are permanent or have a long lasting effect.

Cel: What I often do is talk with the subject about how comfortable they are with concepts, which induction styles they have experienced and what worked best for them, what they like to experience, or if they would like to try something new.

Cel: When we both have a plan for the session, I explain in broad details how I plan to do it, and what it is we are doing.

Cel: If the subject finds everything agreeable, we commence the session, if not, I follow up and find out what it is they might be uncomfortable with.

Cel: That is pretty much my "pre-talk" method.

Cel: Sometimes this can take a place of a whole session, other times it takes 5 minutes

Cel: And also discussing soft,hard limits is important

JustVisiting: Or discussing limits at all. In a first session, you might not need to touch upon soft vs hard, depending I guess on the nature of the trance.

Alice~: Btw, what exactly is defined as soft limit?

Alice~: if I'm not comfortable with doing something than that's a limit

Alice~: but that's pretty much it for me

Cel: Things the subject don't want to do right now, but might be willing to negotiate depending on the trust established between the subject and the tist.

Naomi: Like pictures.

Naomi: For example.

Naomi: Normally you wouldn't hand out to them for normal strangers.

Naomi: but if you trust them enough, you could spare a few shots.

Cel: Good example.

Cel: Limits should always be discussed during the pre-talk

Cel: How you discuss them can vary, as I find just talking about what they are comfortable with and moving from there to be easier for some subjects, than asking directly what they are not comfortable with. I've encountered subjects who are afraid to talk about what they might not want to do, as they don't want to scare away a potential tist.

Shen: "omegle syndrome"

Cel: Pretty much Shen.

IrishGuy: totally get that.

Cel: I'm always highly sceptical towards subjects who are willing to do anything, and try to follow up as much as I can, I've found therefore talking about positives, often gains more results to find out what the subject actually want to do.

Cel: However, there are subjects who love the thrill of not knowing what might happen, and then finding out limits is even more important, I think we all can agree, none of us wants to turn someone else off hypnosis, by accidentally causing abreactions(actually this word is misused, but there aren't any better ones) or negative experiences.

Naomi: Like me C:

Lilly: and me~

Mari: I understand that cel. have had hypnotists go places i dont like

Mari: not fun -_-

Cel: Many do, and I would recommend, that a pre-talk with such individuals to be more extensive, to better be able to create the experience they want, while still being safe.

Mari: that works here. not so much on omegle

Mari: omegle is asr? d.c

Cel: I think that covers it roughly, does anyone have any questions?

Mariam: what if a sub tells you she doesn't have any limits?

Mariam: I get that quite often, and it scares me a bit

Mariam: I mean it's different when it's someone you know and trust, but with a stranger...

Shen: I think when a sub tells you that they dont have limits, it means that they dont actually think they are going to be hypnotized, so what does it matter to them.

Cel: Everyone has limits, they might not be fully aware of where that limit is, but they do have it non the less

Cel: Mariam, if the subject is refusing to give any indication of limits, I would just phrase each suggestion with "if you are comfortable with that" just to get it reaffirmed while they are in trance, I often do this even when limits have been fully discussed as the subject can then just confirm if they are or aren't comfortable.

Mari: seems reasonable

Lilly: What do you think is the best way of approaching a sub? As an equal or slightly dominant or such?

Mari: isn't that sub dependent

Cel: Lilly, I see it as a work relationship, the subject and hypnotist work together to create an experience they both find satisfying, so my approach is more dynamic than "do this, etc"

Alice~: Even though some subjects enjoy being more or less dominated

Senseiphone: Context is everything

Naomi: Cel, as a summary, can you summarize the main types of limit subs you encounter? Like No-Limit subs, Shy subs, open subs. What's the best way to get them to open up about their Limits?

Cel: Just talk to them, be understanding, and not be judgemental, if the subject finds you easy to talk to, they will open up.

Cel: Which is why I end up being friends with a lot of the subjects I've had xD As even if we don't do sessions, we can simply talk about stuff

Cel: takes a lot of the pressure off I feel.

Duncan: can i just say that even if you are easy to talk to then the sub may not open up

Duncan: i only know that cos im like that myself and would be nervous about telling people i dont know about certain things

Cel: I can see that, Duncan.

Duncan: even people i know i still shy about telling

JustVisiting: Cel, in regard to wording the suggestions - can you also comment on different ways a tist can make sure the subject is ok with the suggestions?

JustVisiting: If it's something that wasn't previously agreed on.

Cel: I often phrase it as "if it is something you find enjoyable", or ask "are you comfortable with all of the suggestions?" After I've planted the suggestions.

Cel: I also often add a "if you at any point are not comfortable with a suggestion, you can simply let it not affect you" or similar things.

Senseiphone: Love it

JustVisiting: Yes, that is an important point. That the subjects are aware they're allowed, to reject suggestions they aren't comfortable with.

Krænt: you can also present the suggestions as a question

Krænt: you'd love to x, wouldn't you? then they can easily disagree and it encourages feedback

Naomi: I think it depends on the subject Kraent

Cel: Well, that's leading, and can be used to convince the subject to do something they otherwise wouldn't want to do, Krænt.

Naomi: Yeah.

Naomi: I wouldn't like that x)

Naomi: If it was something i disliked, i would have been uncomfortable and probably snapped out of it by the time they suggested it.

Duncan: if youre going to do it as a question you need to keep the question unbias

Alice~: "Would you like me to..." is also a great phrase I like to use

JustVisiting: mmm it would be more polite perhaps if it was phrased more as "would you like to try X?"

JustVisiting: and then only proceed to make it into a suggestion if the subject says yes

Cel: I always dislike it if someone are "you will feel x about y" or "since y is pleasurable to do you will enjoy when x happens"

Krænt: meh, don't listen to me o.o not my lesson

Cel: It's alright, discussion is always good.

Cel: And being leading is something some enjoy, but I feel it should be discussed if you are planning to be leading, so the subject knows fully well how the session is going to go.

JustVisiting: Leading statements, double binds etc are great, kraent If that's the right sort of dynamic between a specific tist and a specific subjet

Cel nods

Krænt: it ​does​ still give the option to answer with no

Cel: Yes, but it's heavily tilted towards yes.

JustVisiting: Hmmm.. Ok, if you previously established with the subject that they can say no at any point..

JustVisiting: or if they have a safe word system worked out with you, then indeed, you can explore things differently, and with a little more pushing.

Cel: Indeed.

JustVisiting: the problem is a lot of subjects starting out, don't really *know* how to say no, so with a leading question, even if they wanted to say no, they'd feel like they are inclined to agree. Not that this is a problem immediately, but it can become a problem later anyway, sorry *shuts up*

Cel: No no, it's fully fine, JV, it's a very good point.

Cel: So, if there are no other questions, we can cover sentence structure in hypnotic language.

Naomi: Sure thing. I'm out of Questions for now.

Cel: Alright, so, the sentence structure I used is divided in 3 parts, leaders, openers and hangers

Cel: leaders work by leading the subject to pay attention to the things that is said

Cel: It gets the subject reading/listening and grabs their attention.

Cel: For instance

Cel: You might pay attention to the structure of this sentence.

Alice~: I see what you did there

Cel: The power of a leading word is quite effective, and I use it regularly

Shen: what is a leading word?

Mari: the "You"?

Cel: you and might

Shen: ok

Cel: It allows for a less direct approach as it's not trying to force you to read the sentence

Cel: so words like you might, maybe, how etc.

Cel: so openers, these are words for opening up the subject for suggestion, combined with a leader they can be very effective

Cel: the classic opening word is "imagine" as in: you might imagine how something feels, or notice that sensation as you imagine how it feels.

JustVisiting: I love the word notice

Cel: Of course words like notice, or feel, enjoy, focus, etc are also opening words, these are more for example sake as there are a lot of words to choose from

Senseiphone: ^

Cel: Even resist can be used as an opening word.

Cel: You may try to resist x for instance

Cel: but you might find that x is too tempting to not give into

Naomi: Yeah

JustVisiting: haha the same as using a negation?

JustVisiting: "Don't think about X"

Mari: it makes them think about it regardless

Cel: So, hangers, why do I call them hangers? well because

Cel: you can easily hang someone on them as they might be

Cel: waiting for the next line, or thinking about what I might

Cel: say

Senseiphone: Ohhhh nice Cel

Cel: It's an easy way of gaining momentum, as the subject is waiting for what you are saying next

Cel: A hanger does not usually end a line, and is more often used to bind a sentence together, because it reafirms the subjects attention, and keep them reading and engaged.

Cel: But depending on style you can use it to break the subjects flow, and hold their attention.

Cel: Any questions?

Shen: what if the hypnotist says something like "you may notice as you start to feel x," but the subject does not feel x?

Shen: full disclosure, I'm asking this more as a sub than as a potential tist, but I think it is still relevant.

Alice~: as a sub imo you should just tell that you're not feeling it right away

Shen: I do

Alice~: you can aswell just go with it and you may or may not feel it later on

Alice~: sometimes it's not essential for the session so it doesn't matter too much

Alice~: if it is essential you should just tell your tist

Cel: Well, some subjects have a difficulty with feeling physical sensations, so I would phrase it more like "you may start to imagine how x might feel, and as you imagine that sensation you can begin to feel it, can't you?"

Shen: ok, thanks.

Cel: Mhmm, communicating is important, and I like to set aside tome for a post-session talk to know if anything didn't work, or if it didn't have the intended effect

Mariam: I try not to do what Cel is suggesting

Mariam: because I don't like to put a subject in a situation where they tell me no

Mariam: I don't know if that's weird, but I prefer to keep them agreeing with me the entire time

Mariam: so I'd prefer to say "you may not feel it just yet", which they can agree with, but it still suggests that it will happen eventually

Shen: Mariam, when I have to tell my tist "no" about something like that, it puts me off and makes it very hard for me to get back on track.

Alice~: ^

Naomi: Yeah.

Naomi: Same with me.

Mariam nods.

Mariam: that's what I'd like to avoid as much as possible

Cel: I often roll with it, Mariam, sometimes I shift my approach fully if the subject has difficulty with what I'm currently doing, I had a session where I did 5 different approaches because the subject was unresponsive-

Cel: There are a lot of different things you can do to accommodate for a subjects needs, and it mostly comes down to communication

Cel: If you know a subject has difficulty with x do y, if y has results but not strong results either do y more or shift to z, etc

Cel: Eventually you will find what works best, and when you do, it's pretty awesome. Mainly why I love working with subjects who have had difficulty with being hypnotized.

Cel: It's like a puzzle, finding which piece that works best

Shen: Do you have any opinions on the different mediums through which a hypnotist and subject interact? Including, but not limited to, text, voice, video...

Cel: I specialize in text, Shen, what I personally find works best is any interactive medium, as the tist can accommodate on the fly

Cel: I think that concludes what I was intending to cover, and I've talked for over an hour

Shen: Thank you, Cel. I appreciate your time and the effort you've put into this.

Cel: No problem

Senseiphone: Good teaching!

IrishGuy: Thanks Cel

Cel bows

Lilly claps

IrishGuy Throws roses on the stage

Mariam: yes, thank you

Senseiphone will apply what he has learned

Mariam: definitely learned a lot

Cel: Hmm, I have to brb for a bit, but I'll be around and I'm always happy to answer questions, I suppose I could do a demonstration of some sort with Lilly, when I'm back to give you all a proper view of my style, which will happen in my room most likely, if there is any interest

Naomi: I'd like to come along C:

Δέλτα (Delta): I'd love to watch

Cel: Great, I'll be back in a few minutes

Naomi: Thank you for the lesson Cel!

Cel: So, Lilly are you up for being a demonstration?

Lilly: Yup~

Cel: So, Lilly, tell me a bit about what you like the most about trance, is there something you would like to experience, or do?

Lilly: Nothing in particular, I enjoy just about anything.

Cel: I see, I enjoy doing transformation hypnosis, is that something you are open to?

Lilly: Yup, as long as it's nothing too sudden.

Cel: Of course, do you have anything you would like to be transformed into, like an animal etc?

Lilly: I don't really mind what I turn into. Just nothing inanimate, preferably.

Lilly: Living dolls are fine, by the way.

Cel: Alright, speaking of things you would not prefer, can you give me in a broad sense what you would not like?

Lilly: Nothing dangerous, or scat.

Cel: Alright

Cel: Do you have a favourite induction method or style you have found more effective than others?

Lilly: Really long inductions, with constant use of my trigger don't work too well.

Lilly: Fast and medium speed are good.

Cel: Alright, are you comfortable?

Lilly: yup~

Cel: And ready?

Lilly: uh-huh

Cel: Awesome

Cel: So, I just want you to let yourself relax fully right now

Lilly: okay

Cel: Like when you have had a long day

Cel: and you just need to relax, because

Cel: You may have been tired or done something tiring

Cel: so you just let yourself take a break from

Cel: all the things that may have been stressful or

Cel: maybe you just needed to just let yourself not worry about anything, like when

Cel: you just let yourself sink into a relaxed state, releasing all of your

Cel: tension and stress, and just being in that

Cel: moment, you know like when you let yourself just

Cel: sink into that feeling you sometimes get when you

Cel: take a rest, and sometimes you just

Cel: start to drift, maybe even without realizing that you are

Cel: drifting, and when you start to

Cel: drift, you my begin to feel that feeling even stronger as you just

Cel: lean into that pleasant drifting feeling, as you just

Cel: let go, and simply, let it happen, because

Cel: it feels so good, to sometimes let go and

Cel: drift even more, into that feeling as you just

Cel: let go even more, and let that sinking sensation

Cel: take you even further, as it's so pleasant and

Cel: easy to just drift like when you

Cel: fall asleep, and just let it happen as you

Cel: drift into that feeling, because

Cel: you feel so safe and secure, knowing

Cel: you can always just

Cel: drift even more, and then

Cel: it just happens so easily as you

Cel: sink into it even more, and then

Cel: you realize that as you sink even more

Cel: you can fully let go into that feeling

Cel: sinking down, so easily

Cel: into that quiet, relaxed state

Cel: as you drift even more

Cel: deeper and deeper into that feeling

Cel: and just

Cel: fall

Cel: into trance

Cel: so easily and effortlessly

Cel: sinking deeper and deeper

Cel: more and more

Cel: so tranquil and peaceful

Cel: and then you might realize

Cel: that you can let everything I say, affect you so deeply

Cel: letting my words take you deeper, guiding you so easily

Cel: as everything I say and describe you can let it happen

Cel: because you know you are safe and secure

Cel: and you can let my suggestions feel so good and real

Cel: as you sink, and drift

Cel: and now I will plant a few suggestions, and if they are something you like, you can let them affect you

Cel: if anything is unpleasant or is something you would not want, you can simply say

Cel: no thank you

Cel: and then they will not affect you, and you will still be in such a good state of trance

Cel: do you understand?

Lilly: yes I understand

Cel: very good

Cel: and you're doing so very well

Cel: I want you to imagine, how it would feel

Cel: to be a living doll

Cel: how your porcelain skin would feel

Cel: How it would smell

Cel: how you would move

Cel: as you create a perfect image in your mind

Cel: of how that might be like

Cel: as that something you think you can do?

Lilly: yes

Cel: *is

Cel: very good

Cel: and are you holding that image in your mind now?

Lilly: yes

Cel: Let yourself become that image now

Cel: let it flow over you, and for the moment replace how you see yourself

Cel: as you feel it happening more and more

Cel: growing stronger in sensation

Cel: becoming so very real for you

Cel: And this will last for as long as you want it to

Cel: because when you no longer feel like being a living doll, you can say to yourself

Cel: "no longer a doll"

Cel: and then it cease to affect you

Cel: but until you say that

Cel: you will feel just as you do now

Cel: do you understand?

Lilly: yes I understand

Cel: Very good

Cel: And in a moment I will wake you up, and you will still feel these suggestions affecting you

Cel: as I count from 5 to 1 and tell you to awake

Cel: 5

Cel: starting to wake up

Cel: 4

Cel: aware of your surroundings

Cel: 3

Cel: able to look around and maybe let out a little yawn

Cel: 2

Cel: almost awake

Cel: 1

Cel: awake, fully awake and alert

Cel: How do you feel?

Lilly: hey~

Cel: hey

Lilly: I feel really good~

Cel: That's good, can you describe your skin right now?

Lilly: it's shiny and white~

Cel: Sounds wonderful, do you like how it feels?

Lilly: yeah~

Cel: Do you remember what to say when you no longer want to be a doll?

Lilly: yup~

Cel: that's good

Cel: Anything about this session you found difficult to follow or had trouble with?

Lilly: a little, I couldn't fully visualize what I wanted to look like. Heh,but other than that it was fine~

Cel: Alright, glad you liked it

Lilly: thank you for it~

Cel: You're welcome and thank you for being such a good demonstration subject

Lilly: I'm happy to help anytime~