Post by Daniel on Jan 10, 2016 19:17:51 GMT
Jæck: mkay
Jæck: should i get going
JustVisiting: yesss
Shen: y
Jæck: YOU'RE ALL FORNICATORS!
Jæck: sorry
Jæck: had to do that
Jæck: so
Jæck: the core of this lesson will revolve around being mindful of how you communicate with your sub/tist
JustVisiting: Ok
Jæck: communication is the core of how any individual portrays themselves to others and if you know how to manipulate or control the flow of it, you could yield a stronger relationship or at least move a relationship in the direction you want
Jæck: i'll pretty much be covering some theories in the field of interpersonal communication and applying them to what we all do with hypno relationships
Jæck: A lot of the stuff i'm covering, when i first learned it, seemed really obvious
Jæck: and it will sound really obvious
Jæck: but if you put some extra thought into it, i actually found they're a lot deeper than i first thought they were
Jæck: First off is Knapp's relational development model
Jæck: (feel free to ask questions here or in pms at any time)
Jæck: knapp essentially broke down relationships into 2 phases: coming together and coming apart. each of those two were then divided into 5 sections to explain the progressions
Jæck: coming together is as follows: initiation, experimentation, intensifying, integration, and bonding
Jæck: in the model of what we're looking for when we're looking for a sub or a tist, i'll focus on my main method of finding subs, omegle
Jæck: initiation is essentially the meeting
Jæck: it's the 'asr phase'
Jæck: what's important to note about all of this is that one step will influence all the following steps. how you are bound to a sub can largely be determined by how you initiated with them
Jæck: THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T SIMPLY WRITE ASR
Jæck: STAHP IT
Jæck: NO MORE
Jæck: STAHP
Shen: like you do
Jæck: i stopped
Shen: I've seen it.
Jæck: I STAHPED
Shen chuckles to himself after calling the teach out successfully
Jæck: i say this from experience, starting a conversation first and not giving a straight asr will always have a greater chance of yielding an individual interested in maintaining long term
Jæck: i may not be able to speak for women much but i know all the asr folk on omegle are essentially just horny, looking for a one time off. avoid those people. they will lie and tell you anything you want to hear as long as they get to finish by the end of it
Jæck: (unless you're looking for a quick way to get off too. in which case, power to you)
Shen: I call them "cum and go subs"
Jæck: STAHP
Jæck: I CALL THEM THAT
JustVisiting: Hmmm.. I've tried asking people why they do it, after we actually manage to get to a conversation past the asr
Jæck: what's been your experience, jv?
JustVisiting: Many (including myself) succumb to it because eventually we get to the point where we are concerned about gender, age (range at least) and desired orientation
JustVisiting: That is, before we get to doing, anything.
Jæck: but that's what omegle does to people
Jæck: if you find someone that can resist the urge of becoming an asr drone, that person is likely going to be way more likely to be committed to something long term
Jæck: Question from the peanut gallery: why have a long term when you can have someone new everyday
Jæck: I prefer long terms because it gives you a chance to really form a connection with who you work on
JustVisiting seconds that
Jæck: one timers may be new and exciting and that's interesting to a lot of people
Jæck: but i want a sub that i can not only pick around their head and have fun with
Jæck: but also form a connection
Daniel: there's also more that you can do. I've found that in my long-term relationships, I get an idea of my sub's core beliefs, which means that I can tailor sessions to better suit their abilities
Jæck: i'll get more into benefits of long term stuff when i get to the more deep parts of relationships
Jæck: Any questions about initiation?
Shen: none from me
Jæck: Moving on to experimentation
Jæck: experimentation is essentially testing out compatibility
Jæck: How can you connect with any particular person on a level of interests
Jæck: do you share common tv shows?
Jæck: do you play the same games?
Jæck: do you share fetishes?
Jæck: these are the kinds of questions you sort out during experimentation
Jæck: it's where you start disclosing information about yourself
Jæck: in my experience, this phase best works by asking the other person questions
Jæck: it's your job to know what you like and ask and fish around for what the other person likes
Sirenscall: I concur
Jæck: generally, if they give you a key word you can support, you should reinforce it with an immediate agreement. it'll help the other person feel like their opinions are welcomed
Jæck: if i ask someone what shows they like and they tell me american horror story, it's my job to say something like this
Jæck: "ERMAHGERDDDD. I LUV AHS! which seasons do you think are the best?"
Shen has disconnected.
Daniel: the first season, obviously
Jæck: ^beside the point (though completely true)
Jæck: (if they say season 4, you know it's not going to work out and you can dc right there)
Daniel: totally
JustVisiting: Lol
Jæck: and this goes for subs too
JustVisiting: But Jack... remember to also stay honest
JustVisiting: Like if you hate football don't go oh I love it!
Jæck: absolutely. if you base your relationship with someone on a lie, your relationship will then be supported by a lie.
Shen: he said "key word you can support"
Jæck: it may sound like i'm empowering whoever is dominant but a common problem a lot of tists is that subs will just say 'whatever' or not care
JustVisiting: ah, you mean disinterest in sharing?
Jæck: not as much a disinterest in sharing as much as a general ambivalence
Jæck: example of how one lie early on can affect the relationship you form
Jæck: Daniel
Jæck: Mariam
Jæck: DON'T LIE ABOUT YOUR SEX
Jæck: DON'T DO IT
Jæck: STAHP
Jæck: understood?
JustVisiting chuckles
Shen: rekt
Daniel: this is true
Daniel: my first long-term sub thought I was a girl
Daniel: and she told me all along that she was straight, so I thought things will be better when she finds out the truth
Daniel: but I think she just had a fantasy of being the straight girl who gets corrupted. I think she was looking for a girl all along
Daniel: and when I told her that I wasn't, things ended there
Duncan: yeah, lying never good
Duncan: especially about whether male or female
Duncan: unless you have a properly good explanation for it
JustVisiting: jack, how do you suggest people combat ambivalent subs?
JustVisiting: who don't care, or say whatever
Jæck: combat ambivalent subs
Jæck: uzis and ak47s
Jæck: Jv, probing becomes a skill you need to master
Sirenscall: Okay. I definitely agree. From my own experience I hold myself to the highest standard of responsibility and exercisie diligence and persistance to the extreme. When in the role of a Domme I believe it is my responsbility to know my submissive better than they know themselves and better than I know myself. Including mutual interests. If you crave that intimacy and spiritual and energy connection.
Jæck: So experimentation essentially boils down to probing the person you talk to enough to get to know if this is someone you're interested in connecting with
Jæck: the kinds of probes you ask will set the tone for how the sub or tist will believe you want to proceed so you need to be careful about what you ask
Jæck: if you ask about fetishes first, they might think you're looking for a sexual partner of some sort
Jæck: if you ask about other interests, they might be less interested in you if they are looking for sexual partners
Jæck: you need to find a balance in how you approach asking them about themselves
Jæck: what i often do is ask what type of hypno they like first
Jæck: then a general break down of their other fetishes
Jæck: then I change the flow of the conversation to talk about general interests
Jæck: if everything is fine until this point, this is where intensifying can begin
Jæck: intensifying is the meatiest of the three stages
Shen likes meat
Jæck: it marks much deeper self-disclosure
Jæck: in my omegle model, intensifying is when both people decide it's appropriate to move to skype or kik or somewhere were they can have the potential to speak again
Jæck: this is a very critical part of the relationship development for plenty of reasons
Shen: and usually where I dip out
Jæck: there are 5 things you can test while in this phase
Jæck: in experimentation, you were testing your interests against each others
Jæck: in intensifying, you test whether the interest is reciprocated
Jæck: endurance, public presentation, separation, third-party questioning, and triangle tests are your methods of testing
Jæck: endurance: this is a test on whether your partner will stay despite small tribulations or minor discomfort
Jæck: this is your last chance to spill any lies you may have stupidly told earlier in the relationship
Jæck: if you spill after this test, it will likely not end positively unless your partner held the same exact secret or lie
Jæck: Public presentation: does the other person feel comfortable introducing you appropriately?
Jæck: if you bring them to this chat, are they comfortable enough to publicly claim you as their own
Jæck: "this is my tist, joe"
Jæck: "this is my sub debbie"
Jæck: "shen and i have been secretly fucking for 3 years now"
Shen: true
Jæck: these are the kinds of statements you want to hear from your partner in a public setting to know they are interested
Jæck: now it's important you never press them to do any of this
Daniel: Of course that isn't always the acid test. Sometimes a person will have a reason to hide things from someone in here. With my last sub, I don't think we'd have had any problem walking down the street holding hands or anything like that, but it's a matter of people in here knowing things.
Sirenscall: ^
Jæck: yeah
Jæck: of course
Daniel: I imagine Jack gets this too
Daniel: someone may be out of the closet to their friends, but not their family
Duncan: they may also only be out of the closet to a couple of specific friends, not even all of them
Jæck: keep in mind everything i say is totally dependent on the specific relationship
Jæck: when you start applying this stuff to your own lives, that's when you start getting much more out of it
Jæck: Separation: will the other person miss you after long periods of time?
Jæck: you don't want to be the one starting all the conversations
Daniel has been there.
Jæck: if you started the previous 3 or 4 conversations, stop and wait to give them a chance to start
Jæck: if they never send you a message after you start waiting, you can respond in two ways
Jæck: you can either upfront explain your reason for silence and start a dialogue
Jæck: OR
Jæck: you can acknowledge it might not have been meant to be
Jæck: this isn't a reason for heartbreak. if you had no chance to begin with, you need to remember that there's constantly thousands of people on omegle
Sanne: that's a difficult one! Because like.. even when I really WANT to talk, I'm not one to start the conversation. but once the other said hi then BOOM I'm into it with a 1000% of energy
Shen: typical girl yo
Sanne: but like.. I don't know.. I feel like it's a given that I want to talk, just don't want to come across as needy or anything..
Jæck: no
Jæck: it's never a given
Jæck: that's the core of what i'm talking about
Jæck: NEVER assume anything
Jæck: people need dialogue
Jæck: you can't reasonably expect someone to know what you want without talking to them about it
Shen: I used to text a girl I crushed on and every time we talked she was always super talkative, but she never initiated conversations. I dropped her.
Daniel: yeah, I would drop someone for that too. just because I'd assume they weren't interested
Jæck: yeah. if someone feels they're putting all the effort in, they'll start to think it's not worth it
Jæck: this is a big point for subs into long term stuff
Sirenscall: I see both sides of that.
Jæck: unless your dom/tist specifically states you will not message him unless he messages you first, it's your responsibility to give as much interest as he gives
Shen: or she
Jæck: he or she, excuse me
Shen: damn bro, assumptions
Jæck: >.>
Sanne: no but.. I mean.. I know that if I don't constrain myself I'll be suuuper needy and I'll annoy the other because of it.. so I sort of.. you know.. forced myself to be patient, because I'm like.. always there, up for it, respecting that the other has all sorts of other things to do or whatever and will come see me when he or she is ready
Shen: Sanne, you have to initiate too. Aim for 50% of the time.
Daniel: what Shen said
Jæck: if you see he or she started the last three conversations, you're letting it go too far
Sanne: I'm so bad at thattt
Jæck: well that's why i'm talking!
Shen: heres an opportunity to get better
Jæck: to improve how people approach long term
Sanne: sorry, I'll try to listen!
Jæck: please interact too! your concerns may be others' concerns too
Jæck: thanks for contributing, sanne =-)
Sirenscall: I think if they want the dynamic to be that way that is should be stated so at the beginning of their endeavor.
Jæck: siren, this is where you need to start dialogue about the fact
Jæck: if it hasn't been started yet, this is where you need to get it going
Sirenscall: I appreciate you letting me know what I need to be doing lol
Shen: yeah bro, wtf
Sirenscall laughs
Jæck: third-party questioning is a scary one
Jæck: it's where you ask others that you know talk to your partner and try to extract from them whatever your partner has told them about you
Jæck: example!
Jæck: if i'm starting a long term sub thing with danny
Jæck: and i know danny talks to sensei a lot
Jæck: i might want to talk to sensei to find out what danny feels about me
Shen: who doeesnt/
Jæck: last test is the triangle test
Jæck: most people will call it the jealousy test.
Jæck: intensifying can be gauged by how jealous one person can get of the other
Jæck: this is where i like to bring up that i like having multiple subs to gauge their interest in me
Sanne: I'd suck at the jealousy test because I can be suuuper jealous but no one likes a jealous person so I hold back and don't say anything about itt
Jæck: something like that could be talked about in experimentation
Jæck: holding things in can't end well for either person
Sirenscall: Ah, I find dishonesty worse than jealousy.
Daniel: again Sanne, some people will find it flattering
Sirenscall: In my opinion withholding is lying.
Shen: lying by omission
Sanne: pffff, and here I thought I was doing good thingsssss
Jæck: if you want to pursue something where someone else will know you better than you know you, you're missing the point if you don't share what's on your mind
Daniel nods.
Daniel: I would like to know if my sub is jealous. if she is and she doesn't tell me about it, she's going through a lot of agony that I could have prevented
Sirenscall: I agree.
Jæck: question from before: What if your long term sub has more than one tists? Will that be a problem in your relationship? Would it be better for the sub to be exclusive?
Jæck: this, again, is totally based on the relationship both people are striving for
Jæck: i like to counteract possible jealousy by allowing my sub to seek other tists if they so desire
Sirenscall: Unfortunately, I also notice that people tend to form themselves with a combination of prior relational expectations and preconceived notions. It can very frustrating.
Shen: defense mechanisms
Jæck can spend a whole day talking about defense mechanisms
Jæck: the point of the triangle test is to have a dialogue
Sirenscall: I can understand that.
Jæck: you can either test jealousy practically by stating you have multiple subs
Jæck: or you can test it hypothetically
Jæck: either way, you'll notice it doesn't matter how/what you do as long as you're talking about it and having a dialogue
Jæck: communication is key
Blaze: Jack, not everyone enjoys a multi-sub relationship. Most times it's treated as a proper monogonous relationship.
Jæck: very true
Jæck: but it's entirely dependent on the relationship
Blaze: Yeah, exactly, If say, the sub is into poly then that's fine.
Blaze: Personally myself I find it too tiring.
Jæck: i personally fetishize the idea of a harem. if i'm doing hypno, i like to have different subs for different things.
Jæck: i'm sure when i find one sub for everything, i may change my mind
Jæck: but i certainly enjoy things like playing cards against humanity with just me and my subs
Jæck: or gaming with my subs
Jæck: anyway
Jæck: that's intensification
Blaze: To be honest Jack, I was say that's cheating but if ALL of your subs are okay with it, then it's fine.
Jæck: yeah. they all know
Jæck: i tell all my subs about all my other subs
Jæck: some of the subs even become friends
Jæck: i love when that happens
Jæck: it gets really sexy when the subs develop a power hierarchy among themselves
Blaze: It is kind of weird though, tbh Jack.
Blaze: Not knocking it at all.
Jæck: won't name names but i had one sub that me and someone else dually tisted
Jæck: it didn't last long but it was a really fun experience while it did
Jæck: but yeah
Jæck: any questions about intensifying?
Jæck: no?
Jæck: ok
Jæck: MOVING ON TO INTEGRATION!
Jæck: integration is most commonly referred to as maintenance
Jæck: this is where you've already set up and communicated most of what's expected
Jæck: intensifying lays the groundwork for integration
Jæck: integration is where two people meld into a unit
Jæck: things stop being yours and mine
Jæck: they become ours
Jæck: in terms of the hypno stuff we do
Jæck: this is the part of a relationship where two people know what is expected and work out the smaller kinks
Jæck: it's crucial in this phase to point out small discomforts because they will always be much less obvious
Jæck: it's unfair to have someone else expect your tiniest discomforts because it's really hard to manage them
Jæck: it's about tweaking and finding that perfect swing of things
Jæck: integration seems really short and simple
Jæck: but this is the phase where you lose structure
Jæck: up until now, all the phases had very particular things you could do to work on the relationship
Jæck: once you get this deep, there is already so much context within the relationship that providing you a framework to follow is unreasonable
Jæck: by this point, you should feel comfortable enough to openly communicate
Jæck: any questions about it?
Shen: not from me
Jæck: it's really ambiguous but don't underestimate how crucial it is
Jæck: Finally, bonding
Jæck: knapp did not write this model for hypno relationships
Jæck: traditionally, bonding is most commonly seen in marriage
Daniel would like to marry a sub.
Shen will officiate
Jæck: it's the phase where two people announce to everyone that they are a unit
Jæck: it's the final cementing point where two people become so integrated that you can comfortably say they are one thing
Daniel: in Dom/sub relationships, there's often a collaring ceremony
Daniel: and in a hypnosis relationship once before, I gave a sub a hallucination of a tattoo of my name, which is a bit like that
Jæck: in hypno relationships
Jæck: it's the golden point
Jæck: the point at which you are certain your partner knows you better than you know you
Jæck: where a sub can be certain the tist has their best interests in mind
Jæck: and a tist can be certain the sub will act appropriately under their 'dominion of their head'
Jæck: some tists may like when a sub knows their tist so well, they act on what the tist may want before they even ask
Jæck: keep in mind the context of all the relationship you had before this bonding phase
Jæck: my idea of bonding may be different than some of yours
Jæck: so those are the five stages. with that, there's two points that need to be addressed regarding them
Jæck: before i do those, any questions about bonding?
Daniel: no, I don't think so
Jæck would like to make sure no one asks questions about bondage
Daniel:
Jæck: mkay! last two points
Jæck: 1)
Jæck: this is not a linear progression
Jæck: i mentioned there's coming together, but this is complimented by coming apart
Jæck: coming apart is a backwards form of coming together
Jæck: bonding becomes differentiation, integration becomes circumscription, intensifying becomes stagnation, experimentation becomes avoidance, and initiation becomes termination
Daniel:
Jæck: people never simply build from initiation to bonding. trials and tribulations will happen along the way.
Jæck: this is why one of the first parts of my intensifying stage with my subs is setting up a termination procedure
Jæck: what is my procedure?
Jæck: i simply tell them "We've shown enough interest in each other to have some kind of respect between each other. if you ever feel something is not working out, i would like you to tell me so we can try to work it out. If you feel this is not something you want to pursue, i ask you be a man about it and simply tell me so we can have a clean break"
Jæck: no one wants a nasty break
Daniel nods.
Daniel: it's always nice when the sub tells you that it's over
Daniel: well, not nice, but better than the alternative
Daniel: you know what I mean
Jæck: coming together and coming apart are a fluctuation
Jæck: you can go back and forth on the scale at any time and at any point
Jæck: effective communication will often promote coming together more than anything else
Jæck: 2)
Jæck: two people may not be at the same stage at the same time
Jæck: It is ideal if they are
Jæck: but keep in mind as you progress into the next stage personally, be aware of your partner's needs and try to ensure they make the transition into the next stage with you
Jæck: leaving your partner behind in experimentation and moving on to integration is a problem.
Jæck: two people being a bit iffy as to if one's still experimenting and the other wants to intensify is normal
Jæck: but communicate these issues in a way both people can understand
Jæck: what i just explained is not my opinion
Jæck: this is well thought out research that covers the core of relational modeling in the field of interpersonal communication
Jæck: i simply spun it to apply to what we're interested in
Jæck: so in summary: initiation, experimentation, intensifying, integration, bonding. Intensifying can be tested by endurance, public presentation, separation, third-party questioning, and triangle tests. Points to keep in mind: reverse model of this and keeping an endgame in mind if necessary as well as understanding that two people make the journey through steps independently and position needs to be communicated effectively
Jæck: i can spend some time talking about coming apart if anyone is interested
Jæck: but generally,
Jæck: don't expect your partner to have this framework
Jæck: if i just met shen
Jæck: i can't walk up to him and ask him if he's ready to start intensifying
Jæck: it doesn't work that way
Daniel: actually that's a great pickup line that totally works in bars when people have been drinking
Jæck: what i gave you guys is a way to start developing your sense of perception
Jæck: if you can become more perceptive, both you and your partner can always benefit from that
Jæck: what you have here are things you can look for
Jæck: ways you can identify where the other person is in the progression and evaluate if you're in the same place or not
Jæck: make sense?
Daniel nods.
Sirenscall: Yes
Jæck: anyone interested in hearing about coming apart?
Daniel: I am, if you're interesting in telling us and other people want to hear
Shen: yes
Jæck: so
Jæck: coming apart
Jæck: we'll start with the point of extreme bonding
Jæck: differentiation
Jæck: that's the point at which one person starts dissociating from the unit
Jæck: this is the point at which differences start to become more prevalent than similarities
Jæck: differentiation is common
Jæck: just because two people have an episode of differentiation does not mean they are definitively coming apart
Jæck: it's a common way two people can get on a dialogue to resolve an issue
Jæck: if you start differentiating, IT IS NOT YET OVER!
Jæck: never be abrasive or aggressive unless that's part of the relationship you formed
Jæck: negative attitudes during any stage of coming apart can never help
Jæck: unless of course the relationship is defined by those aggressions
Jæck: circumscription
Jæck: this is a harder one
Jæck: this is where two people start feeling they need their own space
Jæck: it's a point where it becomes unacceptable to invade the space of your partner
Jæck: unless specifically stated so
Jæck: often times when i'm in a stage of circumscription, i keep my messages short and i try to focus everything i talk about on the sub's wants and needs
Jæck: showing you care and are willing to work are your method of getting out of it
Jæck: at this point, you can't force anyone to have a conversation with you
Jæck: all you can do is ensure they know you are willing if they are
Jæck: stagnation is where fights become the norm
Jæck: one or both parties come to expect the other to be aggressive and abrasive or uninterested
Jæck: it's a point where you almost expect that the only thing your partner will say about you to others is negative
Jæck: As i said before, these are not linear
Jæck: you can jump around these steps in anyway you like
Jæck: most often, they'll follow these lines
Jæck: BUT, occasionally, you'll find one person could be only differentiating when the other is ready to terminate
Jæck: that's called heartbreak. when something is ended unexpectedly
Jæck: i'll keep explaining this after i explain the last two steps of coming apart
Jæck: Avoidance! this is the point where the partner makes active steps in staying away from you
Jæck: physical, mental, and emotional separation become the goal of someone in the avoidance stage
Jæck: this is where one will stop thinking about the other person and solely try to focus on their own needs
Jæck: avoidance is nearly always a harbinger for the final step--termination
Jæck: this is simply where one or both parties in the relationship believe they are no longer happy and desire to cut off ties
Jæck: once a couple gets to avoidance, saving the relationship is nearly impossible
Jæck: this is important because a major life event could put someone in a position where they totally skip the first 3 steps of coming apart
δέλτα: This got a little dark:/
Jæck: delta, if you consistently look to only talk about happy things, you're in for a nasty shock when the bad things do happen.
Jæck: these are things you need to keep in mind but never obsess over
δέλτα: Okay
Jæck: if you can understand how something ends, you can try to manipulate a situation to avoid it
Jæck: knowing the dark helps keep the happy happier
Jæck: i think i'm done for the day. there's a whole lot of other theories and dialectics i can talk about but those can wait for a different time
Jæck: i'm always happy to talk about communication--theory or practice--with anyone any time
Jæck: if you have questions, feel free to ask at any time (even if you're reading this on the forum. Seriously. Just ask me)
Jæck: any questions from anyone?
Jæck: actually, i'm gonna run and have breakfast. i'll be back asap!
Jæck: message me questions and i'll be glad to chat about them
Jæck: CLASS DISMISSED
Jæck: should i get going
JustVisiting: yesss
Shen: y
Jæck: YOU'RE ALL FORNICATORS!
Jæck: sorry
Jæck: had to do that
Jæck: so
Jæck: the core of this lesson will revolve around being mindful of how you communicate with your sub/tist
JustVisiting: Ok
Jæck: communication is the core of how any individual portrays themselves to others and if you know how to manipulate or control the flow of it, you could yield a stronger relationship or at least move a relationship in the direction you want
Jæck: i'll pretty much be covering some theories in the field of interpersonal communication and applying them to what we all do with hypno relationships
Jæck: A lot of the stuff i'm covering, when i first learned it, seemed really obvious
Jæck: and it will sound really obvious
Jæck: but if you put some extra thought into it, i actually found they're a lot deeper than i first thought they were
Jæck: First off is Knapp's relational development model
Jæck: (feel free to ask questions here or in pms at any time)
Jæck: knapp essentially broke down relationships into 2 phases: coming together and coming apart. each of those two were then divided into 5 sections to explain the progressions
Jæck: coming together is as follows: initiation, experimentation, intensifying, integration, and bonding
Jæck: in the model of what we're looking for when we're looking for a sub or a tist, i'll focus on my main method of finding subs, omegle
Jæck: initiation is essentially the meeting
Jæck: it's the 'asr phase'
Jæck: what's important to note about all of this is that one step will influence all the following steps. how you are bound to a sub can largely be determined by how you initiated with them
Jæck: THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T SIMPLY WRITE ASR
Jæck: STAHP IT
Jæck: NO MORE
Jæck: STAHP
Shen: like you do
Jæck: i stopped
Shen: I've seen it.
Jæck: I STAHPED
Shen chuckles to himself after calling the teach out successfully
Jæck: i say this from experience, starting a conversation first and not giving a straight asr will always have a greater chance of yielding an individual interested in maintaining long term
Jæck: i may not be able to speak for women much but i know all the asr folk on omegle are essentially just horny, looking for a one time off. avoid those people. they will lie and tell you anything you want to hear as long as they get to finish by the end of it
Jæck: (unless you're looking for a quick way to get off too. in which case, power to you)
Shen: I call them "cum and go subs"
Jæck: STAHP
Jæck: I CALL THEM THAT
JustVisiting: Hmmm.. I've tried asking people why they do it, after we actually manage to get to a conversation past the asr
Jæck: what's been your experience, jv?
JustVisiting: Many (including myself) succumb to it because eventually we get to the point where we are concerned about gender, age (range at least) and desired orientation
JustVisiting: That is, before we get to doing, anything.
Jæck: but that's what omegle does to people
Jæck: if you find someone that can resist the urge of becoming an asr drone, that person is likely going to be way more likely to be committed to something long term
Jæck: Question from the peanut gallery: why have a long term when you can have someone new everyday
Jæck: I prefer long terms because it gives you a chance to really form a connection with who you work on
JustVisiting seconds that
Jæck: one timers may be new and exciting and that's interesting to a lot of people
Jæck: but i want a sub that i can not only pick around their head and have fun with
Jæck: but also form a connection
Daniel: there's also more that you can do. I've found that in my long-term relationships, I get an idea of my sub's core beliefs, which means that I can tailor sessions to better suit their abilities
Jæck: i'll get more into benefits of long term stuff when i get to the more deep parts of relationships
Jæck: Any questions about initiation?
Shen: none from me
Jæck: Moving on to experimentation
Jæck: experimentation is essentially testing out compatibility
Jæck: How can you connect with any particular person on a level of interests
Jæck: do you share common tv shows?
Jæck: do you play the same games?
Jæck: do you share fetishes?
Jæck: these are the kinds of questions you sort out during experimentation
Jæck: it's where you start disclosing information about yourself
Jæck: in my experience, this phase best works by asking the other person questions
Jæck: it's your job to know what you like and ask and fish around for what the other person likes
Sirenscall: I concur
Jæck: generally, if they give you a key word you can support, you should reinforce it with an immediate agreement. it'll help the other person feel like their opinions are welcomed
Jæck: if i ask someone what shows they like and they tell me american horror story, it's my job to say something like this
Jæck: "ERMAHGERDDDD. I LUV AHS! which seasons do you think are the best?"
Shen has disconnected.
Daniel: the first season, obviously
Jæck: ^beside the point (though completely true)
Jæck: (if they say season 4, you know it's not going to work out and you can dc right there)
Daniel: totally
JustVisiting: Lol
Jæck: and this goes for subs too
JustVisiting: But Jack... remember to also stay honest
JustVisiting: Like if you hate football don't go oh I love it!
Jæck: absolutely. if you base your relationship with someone on a lie, your relationship will then be supported by a lie.
Shen: he said "key word you can support"
Jæck: it may sound like i'm empowering whoever is dominant but a common problem a lot of tists is that subs will just say 'whatever' or not care
JustVisiting: ah, you mean disinterest in sharing?
Jæck: not as much a disinterest in sharing as much as a general ambivalence
Jæck: example of how one lie early on can affect the relationship you form
Jæck: Daniel
Jæck: Mariam
Jæck: DON'T LIE ABOUT YOUR SEX
Jæck: DON'T DO IT
Jæck: STAHP
Jæck: understood?
JustVisiting chuckles
Shen: rekt
Daniel: this is true
Daniel: my first long-term sub thought I was a girl
Daniel: and she told me all along that she was straight, so I thought things will be better when she finds out the truth
Daniel: but I think she just had a fantasy of being the straight girl who gets corrupted. I think she was looking for a girl all along
Daniel: and when I told her that I wasn't, things ended there
Duncan: yeah, lying never good
Duncan: especially about whether male or female
Duncan: unless you have a properly good explanation for it
JustVisiting: jack, how do you suggest people combat ambivalent subs?
JustVisiting: who don't care, or say whatever
Jæck: combat ambivalent subs
Jæck: uzis and ak47s
Jæck: Jv, probing becomes a skill you need to master
Sirenscall: Okay. I definitely agree. From my own experience I hold myself to the highest standard of responsibility and exercisie diligence and persistance to the extreme. When in the role of a Domme I believe it is my responsbility to know my submissive better than they know themselves and better than I know myself. Including mutual interests. If you crave that intimacy and spiritual and energy connection.
Jæck: So experimentation essentially boils down to probing the person you talk to enough to get to know if this is someone you're interested in connecting with
Jæck: the kinds of probes you ask will set the tone for how the sub or tist will believe you want to proceed so you need to be careful about what you ask
Jæck: if you ask about fetishes first, they might think you're looking for a sexual partner of some sort
Jæck: if you ask about other interests, they might be less interested in you if they are looking for sexual partners
Jæck: you need to find a balance in how you approach asking them about themselves
Jæck: what i often do is ask what type of hypno they like first
Jæck: then a general break down of their other fetishes
Jæck: then I change the flow of the conversation to talk about general interests
Jæck: if everything is fine until this point, this is where intensifying can begin
Jæck: intensifying is the meatiest of the three stages
Shen likes meat
Jæck: it marks much deeper self-disclosure
Jæck: in my omegle model, intensifying is when both people decide it's appropriate to move to skype or kik or somewhere were they can have the potential to speak again
Jæck: this is a very critical part of the relationship development for plenty of reasons
Shen: and usually where I dip out
Jæck: there are 5 things you can test while in this phase
Jæck: in experimentation, you were testing your interests against each others
Jæck: in intensifying, you test whether the interest is reciprocated
Jæck: endurance, public presentation, separation, third-party questioning, and triangle tests are your methods of testing
Jæck: endurance: this is a test on whether your partner will stay despite small tribulations or minor discomfort
Jæck: this is your last chance to spill any lies you may have stupidly told earlier in the relationship
Jæck: if you spill after this test, it will likely not end positively unless your partner held the same exact secret or lie
Jæck: Public presentation: does the other person feel comfortable introducing you appropriately?
Jæck: if you bring them to this chat, are they comfortable enough to publicly claim you as their own
Jæck: "this is my tist, joe"
Jæck: "this is my sub debbie"
Jæck: "shen and i have been secretly fucking for 3 years now"
Shen: true
Jæck: these are the kinds of statements you want to hear from your partner in a public setting to know they are interested
Jæck: now it's important you never press them to do any of this
Daniel: Of course that isn't always the acid test. Sometimes a person will have a reason to hide things from someone in here. With my last sub, I don't think we'd have had any problem walking down the street holding hands or anything like that, but it's a matter of people in here knowing things.
Sirenscall: ^
Jæck: yeah
Jæck: of course
Daniel: I imagine Jack gets this too
Daniel: someone may be out of the closet to their friends, but not their family
Duncan: they may also only be out of the closet to a couple of specific friends, not even all of them
Jæck: keep in mind everything i say is totally dependent on the specific relationship
Jæck: when you start applying this stuff to your own lives, that's when you start getting much more out of it
Jæck: Separation: will the other person miss you after long periods of time?
Jæck: you don't want to be the one starting all the conversations
Daniel has been there.
Jæck: if you started the previous 3 or 4 conversations, stop and wait to give them a chance to start
Jæck: if they never send you a message after you start waiting, you can respond in two ways
Jæck: you can either upfront explain your reason for silence and start a dialogue
Jæck: OR
Jæck: you can acknowledge it might not have been meant to be
Jæck: this isn't a reason for heartbreak. if you had no chance to begin with, you need to remember that there's constantly thousands of people on omegle
Sanne: that's a difficult one! Because like.. even when I really WANT to talk, I'm not one to start the conversation. but once the other said hi then BOOM I'm into it with a 1000% of energy
Shen: typical girl yo
Sanne: but like.. I don't know.. I feel like it's a given that I want to talk, just don't want to come across as needy or anything..
Jæck: no
Jæck: it's never a given
Jæck: that's the core of what i'm talking about
Jæck: NEVER assume anything
Jæck: people need dialogue
Jæck: you can't reasonably expect someone to know what you want without talking to them about it
Shen: I used to text a girl I crushed on and every time we talked she was always super talkative, but she never initiated conversations. I dropped her.
Daniel: yeah, I would drop someone for that too. just because I'd assume they weren't interested
Jæck: yeah. if someone feels they're putting all the effort in, they'll start to think it's not worth it
Jæck: this is a big point for subs into long term stuff
Sirenscall: I see both sides of that.
Jæck: unless your dom/tist specifically states you will not message him unless he messages you first, it's your responsibility to give as much interest as he gives
Shen: or she
Jæck: he or she, excuse me
Shen: damn bro, assumptions
Jæck: >.>
Sanne: no but.. I mean.. I know that if I don't constrain myself I'll be suuuper needy and I'll annoy the other because of it.. so I sort of.. you know.. forced myself to be patient, because I'm like.. always there, up for it, respecting that the other has all sorts of other things to do or whatever and will come see me when he or she is ready
Shen: Sanne, you have to initiate too. Aim for 50% of the time.
Daniel: what Shen said
Jæck: if you see he or she started the last three conversations, you're letting it go too far
Sanne: I'm so bad at thattt
Jæck: well that's why i'm talking!
Shen: heres an opportunity to get better
Jæck: to improve how people approach long term
Sanne: sorry, I'll try to listen!
Jæck: please interact too! your concerns may be others' concerns too
Jæck: thanks for contributing, sanne =-)
Sirenscall: I think if they want the dynamic to be that way that is should be stated so at the beginning of their endeavor.
Jæck: siren, this is where you need to start dialogue about the fact
Jæck: if it hasn't been started yet, this is where you need to get it going
Sirenscall: I appreciate you letting me know what I need to be doing lol
Shen: yeah bro, wtf
Sirenscall laughs
Jæck: third-party questioning is a scary one
Jæck: it's where you ask others that you know talk to your partner and try to extract from them whatever your partner has told them about you
Jæck: example!
Jæck: if i'm starting a long term sub thing with danny
Jæck: and i know danny talks to sensei a lot
Jæck: i might want to talk to sensei to find out what danny feels about me
Shen: who doeesnt/
Jæck: last test is the triangle test
Jæck: most people will call it the jealousy test.
Jæck: intensifying can be gauged by how jealous one person can get of the other
Jæck: this is where i like to bring up that i like having multiple subs to gauge their interest in me
Sanne: I'd suck at the jealousy test because I can be suuuper jealous but no one likes a jealous person so I hold back and don't say anything about itt
Jæck: something like that could be talked about in experimentation
Jæck: holding things in can't end well for either person
Sirenscall: Ah, I find dishonesty worse than jealousy.
Daniel: again Sanne, some people will find it flattering
Sirenscall: In my opinion withholding is lying.
Shen: lying by omission
Sanne: pffff, and here I thought I was doing good thingsssss
Jæck: if you want to pursue something where someone else will know you better than you know you, you're missing the point if you don't share what's on your mind
Daniel nods.
Daniel: I would like to know if my sub is jealous. if she is and she doesn't tell me about it, she's going through a lot of agony that I could have prevented
Sirenscall: I agree.
Jæck: question from before: What if your long term sub has more than one tists? Will that be a problem in your relationship? Would it be better for the sub to be exclusive?
Jæck: this, again, is totally based on the relationship both people are striving for
Jæck: i like to counteract possible jealousy by allowing my sub to seek other tists if they so desire
Sirenscall: Unfortunately, I also notice that people tend to form themselves with a combination of prior relational expectations and preconceived notions. It can very frustrating.
Shen: defense mechanisms
Jæck can spend a whole day talking about defense mechanisms
Jæck: the point of the triangle test is to have a dialogue
Sirenscall: I can understand that.
Jæck: you can either test jealousy practically by stating you have multiple subs
Jæck: or you can test it hypothetically
Jæck: either way, you'll notice it doesn't matter how/what you do as long as you're talking about it and having a dialogue
Jæck: communication is key
Blaze: Jack, not everyone enjoys a multi-sub relationship. Most times it's treated as a proper monogonous relationship.
Jæck: very true
Jæck: but it's entirely dependent on the relationship
Blaze: Yeah, exactly, If say, the sub is into poly then that's fine.
Blaze: Personally myself I find it too tiring.
Jæck: i personally fetishize the idea of a harem. if i'm doing hypno, i like to have different subs for different things.
Jæck: i'm sure when i find one sub for everything, i may change my mind
Jæck: but i certainly enjoy things like playing cards against humanity with just me and my subs
Jæck: or gaming with my subs
Jæck: anyway
Jæck: that's intensification
Blaze: To be honest Jack, I was say that's cheating but if ALL of your subs are okay with it, then it's fine.
Jæck: yeah. they all know
Jæck: i tell all my subs about all my other subs
Jæck: some of the subs even become friends
Jæck: i love when that happens
Jæck: it gets really sexy when the subs develop a power hierarchy among themselves
Blaze: It is kind of weird though, tbh Jack.
Blaze: Not knocking it at all.
Jæck: won't name names but i had one sub that me and someone else dually tisted
Jæck: it didn't last long but it was a really fun experience while it did
Jæck: but yeah
Jæck: any questions about intensifying?
Jæck: no?
Jæck: ok
Jæck: MOVING ON TO INTEGRATION!
Jæck: integration is most commonly referred to as maintenance
Jæck: this is where you've already set up and communicated most of what's expected
Jæck: intensifying lays the groundwork for integration
Jæck: integration is where two people meld into a unit
Jæck: things stop being yours and mine
Jæck: they become ours
Jæck: in terms of the hypno stuff we do
Jæck: this is the part of a relationship where two people know what is expected and work out the smaller kinks
Jæck: it's crucial in this phase to point out small discomforts because they will always be much less obvious
Jæck: it's unfair to have someone else expect your tiniest discomforts because it's really hard to manage them
Jæck: it's about tweaking and finding that perfect swing of things
Jæck: integration seems really short and simple
Jæck: but this is the phase where you lose structure
Jæck: up until now, all the phases had very particular things you could do to work on the relationship
Jæck: once you get this deep, there is already so much context within the relationship that providing you a framework to follow is unreasonable
Jæck: by this point, you should feel comfortable enough to openly communicate
Jæck: any questions about it?
Shen: not from me
Jæck: it's really ambiguous but don't underestimate how crucial it is
Jæck: Finally, bonding
Jæck: knapp did not write this model for hypno relationships
Jæck: traditionally, bonding is most commonly seen in marriage
Daniel would like to marry a sub.
Shen will officiate
Jæck: it's the phase where two people announce to everyone that they are a unit
Jæck: it's the final cementing point where two people become so integrated that you can comfortably say they are one thing
Daniel: in Dom/sub relationships, there's often a collaring ceremony
Daniel: and in a hypnosis relationship once before, I gave a sub a hallucination of a tattoo of my name, which is a bit like that
Jæck: in hypno relationships
Jæck: it's the golden point
Jæck: the point at which you are certain your partner knows you better than you know you
Jæck: where a sub can be certain the tist has their best interests in mind
Jæck: and a tist can be certain the sub will act appropriately under their 'dominion of their head'
Jæck: some tists may like when a sub knows their tist so well, they act on what the tist may want before they even ask
Jæck: keep in mind the context of all the relationship you had before this bonding phase
Jæck: my idea of bonding may be different than some of yours
Jæck: so those are the five stages. with that, there's two points that need to be addressed regarding them
Jæck: before i do those, any questions about bonding?
Daniel: no, I don't think so
Jæck would like to make sure no one asks questions about bondage
Daniel:
Jæck: mkay! last two points
Jæck: 1)
Jæck: this is not a linear progression
Jæck: i mentioned there's coming together, but this is complimented by coming apart
Jæck: coming apart is a backwards form of coming together
Jæck: bonding becomes differentiation, integration becomes circumscription, intensifying becomes stagnation, experimentation becomes avoidance, and initiation becomes termination
Daniel:
Jæck: people never simply build from initiation to bonding. trials and tribulations will happen along the way.
Jæck: this is why one of the first parts of my intensifying stage with my subs is setting up a termination procedure
Jæck: what is my procedure?
Jæck: i simply tell them "We've shown enough interest in each other to have some kind of respect between each other. if you ever feel something is not working out, i would like you to tell me so we can try to work it out. If you feel this is not something you want to pursue, i ask you be a man about it and simply tell me so we can have a clean break"
Jæck: no one wants a nasty break
Daniel nods.
Daniel: it's always nice when the sub tells you that it's over
Daniel: well, not nice, but better than the alternative
Daniel: you know what I mean
Jæck: coming together and coming apart are a fluctuation
Jæck: you can go back and forth on the scale at any time and at any point
Jæck: effective communication will often promote coming together more than anything else
Jæck: 2)
Jæck: two people may not be at the same stage at the same time
Jæck: It is ideal if they are
Jæck: but keep in mind as you progress into the next stage personally, be aware of your partner's needs and try to ensure they make the transition into the next stage with you
Jæck: leaving your partner behind in experimentation and moving on to integration is a problem.
Jæck: two people being a bit iffy as to if one's still experimenting and the other wants to intensify is normal
Jæck: but communicate these issues in a way both people can understand
Jæck: what i just explained is not my opinion
Jæck: this is well thought out research that covers the core of relational modeling in the field of interpersonal communication
Jæck: i simply spun it to apply to what we're interested in
Jæck: so in summary: initiation, experimentation, intensifying, integration, bonding. Intensifying can be tested by endurance, public presentation, separation, third-party questioning, and triangle tests. Points to keep in mind: reverse model of this and keeping an endgame in mind if necessary as well as understanding that two people make the journey through steps independently and position needs to be communicated effectively
Jæck: i can spend some time talking about coming apart if anyone is interested
Jæck: but generally,
Jæck: don't expect your partner to have this framework
Jæck: if i just met shen
Jæck: i can't walk up to him and ask him if he's ready to start intensifying
Jæck: it doesn't work that way
Daniel: actually that's a great pickup line that totally works in bars when people have been drinking
Jæck: what i gave you guys is a way to start developing your sense of perception
Jæck: if you can become more perceptive, both you and your partner can always benefit from that
Jæck: what you have here are things you can look for
Jæck: ways you can identify where the other person is in the progression and evaluate if you're in the same place or not
Jæck: make sense?
Daniel nods.
Sirenscall: Yes
Jæck: anyone interested in hearing about coming apart?
Daniel: I am, if you're interesting in telling us and other people want to hear
Shen: yes
Jæck: so
Jæck: coming apart
Jæck: we'll start with the point of extreme bonding
Jæck: differentiation
Jæck: that's the point at which one person starts dissociating from the unit
Jæck: this is the point at which differences start to become more prevalent than similarities
Jæck: differentiation is common
Jæck: just because two people have an episode of differentiation does not mean they are definitively coming apart
Jæck: it's a common way two people can get on a dialogue to resolve an issue
Jæck: if you start differentiating, IT IS NOT YET OVER!
Jæck: never be abrasive or aggressive unless that's part of the relationship you formed
Jæck: negative attitudes during any stage of coming apart can never help
Jæck: unless of course the relationship is defined by those aggressions
Jæck: circumscription
Jæck: this is a harder one
Jæck: this is where two people start feeling they need their own space
Jæck: it's a point where it becomes unacceptable to invade the space of your partner
Jæck: unless specifically stated so
Jæck: often times when i'm in a stage of circumscription, i keep my messages short and i try to focus everything i talk about on the sub's wants and needs
Jæck: showing you care and are willing to work are your method of getting out of it
Jæck: at this point, you can't force anyone to have a conversation with you
Jæck: all you can do is ensure they know you are willing if they are
Jæck: stagnation is where fights become the norm
Jæck: one or both parties come to expect the other to be aggressive and abrasive or uninterested
Jæck: it's a point where you almost expect that the only thing your partner will say about you to others is negative
Jæck: As i said before, these are not linear
Jæck: you can jump around these steps in anyway you like
Jæck: most often, they'll follow these lines
Jæck: BUT, occasionally, you'll find one person could be only differentiating when the other is ready to terminate
Jæck: that's called heartbreak. when something is ended unexpectedly
Jæck: i'll keep explaining this after i explain the last two steps of coming apart
Jæck: Avoidance! this is the point where the partner makes active steps in staying away from you
Jæck: physical, mental, and emotional separation become the goal of someone in the avoidance stage
Jæck: this is where one will stop thinking about the other person and solely try to focus on their own needs
Jæck: avoidance is nearly always a harbinger for the final step--termination
Jæck: this is simply where one or both parties in the relationship believe they are no longer happy and desire to cut off ties
Jæck: once a couple gets to avoidance, saving the relationship is nearly impossible
Jæck: this is important because a major life event could put someone in a position where they totally skip the first 3 steps of coming apart
δέλτα: This got a little dark:/
Jæck: delta, if you consistently look to only talk about happy things, you're in for a nasty shock when the bad things do happen.
Jæck: these are things you need to keep in mind but never obsess over
δέλτα: Okay
Jæck: if you can understand how something ends, you can try to manipulate a situation to avoid it
Jæck: knowing the dark helps keep the happy happier
Jæck: i think i'm done for the day. there's a whole lot of other theories and dialectics i can talk about but those can wait for a different time
Jæck: i'm always happy to talk about communication--theory or practice--with anyone any time
Jæck: if you have questions, feel free to ask at any time (even if you're reading this on the forum. Seriously. Just ask me)
Jæck: any questions from anyone?
Jæck: actually, i'm gonna run and have breakfast. i'll be back asap!
Jæck: message me questions and i'll be glad to chat about them
Jæck: CLASS DISMISSED